Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:54 pm
Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:22 pm
jcnporter wrote:I'm not American, but this thread is a pretty good take on the situation, on who is ultimately responsible for this, in my opinion -
https://twitter.com/ezraklein/status/1347241551412428807
I think there's a clear parallel in the UK, where stoking resentments about class, cultural and racial issues has for years, if not decades, been used as a tool to bolster the Conservative vote and provide cover for a destructive neoliberal economic agenda.
What's even more unfortunate is that centrists and 'moderates' have, in many cases knowingly, gone along with it to maintain their status quo and attack the left, who they see as the real danger.
The reason for the protests and riots that are happening right now, is for reasons that are way more similar to why the Black Lives Matter protests and riots happened than either side is willing to admit.
At the core of these riots, at the core of why they voted for Trump in the first place, is frustration and fear over what they see around them: lost jobs, low wages, the cost of living skyrocketing out of control.
Simply put: people who are happy and comfortable don't riot.
The problem is that they're misplacing their anger and rage. They're currently rioting on behalf of someone who helped put them in the mess they're in.
This isn't about left vs. right, Republican vs. Democrat, White vs. Black.
It's about the people vs. a relative handful of incredibly powerful politicians and cronies (including Trump and Biden) who rob us every day.
They rob us of our money, but they also rob us of our opportunities, of our livelihoods, of our future. As we've seen many times, sometimes they rob us of our lives.
Their actions fill us with rage, and they redirect our rage towards each other.
Remember in the 2000s when Occupy (anti big business) & the Tea Party (anti big govt) were fighting each other while big govt handed trillions of dollars to big business, created regulations to turn them into monopolies, and laughed at the rest of us?
That's happening right now.
We just got yet another "stimulus" bill where we got $600, crony corporations & big government agencies got trillions, & we got stuck with the bill for it, with interest.
This was passed in a broad bipartisan agreement. Pelosi, Harris, McConnell and Trump all had a part in it.
Republicrats want us divided. They want us to hate each other.
Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:53 pm
SamuraiDrifter wrote:
I think he oversimplifies things a little (obviously Trump has benefited from stoking racial hatred, meaning it is to some extent about "black and white,") but the point is there. The major parties are more the same than different and their real enemy is anyone who would challenge the neoliberal economic status quo.
Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:04 pm
jcnporter wrote:Yeah, and I think there's another aspect to this as well - lots of pundits commenting at the moment are very keen to pin this solely on Trump, painting him as a unique aberration in anotherwise relatively unblemished run of US Presidents - I mean, that's just bullshit, isn't it?
Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:15 pm
SamuraiDrifter wrote:jcnporter wrote:Yeah, and I think there's another aspect to this as well - lots of pundits commenting at the moment are very keen to pin this solely on Trump, painting him as a unique aberration in anotherwise relatively unblemished run of US Presidents - I mean, that's just bullshit, isn't it?
Yeah it's total bullshit. The political establishment wants nothing more than to go back to "normal" where the comfortable white liberals ignore the crimes the government and it's corporate benefactors commit on a daily basis, their drone strikes, war profiteering, screwing of the poor and working class, etc. They want us to believe that Trump was an abberation, not a logical progression.
Obama came right out and said this when he was campaigning for Biden: "If Biden and Harris win, you won't have to think about them every day."
And Biden actually made the ridiculous claim that Trump was "the first racist president."
Now when there are (justifiable) riots and uprisings over police brutality and state murder, over oil pipelines built through indigenous land, I have to wonder- how many liberals will fall in line when Biden tells people to "go home" and "be peaceful"? How many will defend him now that he's already backpedaling on his promise to undo Trump's immigration policies "on day one"?
Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:03 pm
Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:55 pm
niknak wrote:Ooh, nice comeback. I don't have time for a pointless debate with an obvious dingbat, so please take the hint. Go away. You and your moronic views are not welcome here.
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:07 pm
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:54 pm
arvy wrote:Truth against sweat lie, dying like a free man or live like a slave, your actions in this life echoes in the eternity, you have all the power in your hands. But if you are a system titty sucker, you just a pig meal next life.
Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:09 am
Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:35 am
Techboy wrote:I don't get how it's unacceptable to say he should be assassinated.
niknak wrote:You and your moronic views are not welcome here.
niknak wrote:Now tell us about how it was all caused by antifa infiltrators
bungler666 wrote:Yeah, cause paying taxes so everyone can afford to go to the hospital is slavery.
SamuraiDrifter wrote:So yeah, spare me the pearl-clutching about wishing harm on the fascist despot.
SamuraiDrifter wrote:"The man who sent secret police to drag protesters off the street into black vans is such a man of the people and supporter of freedom!"
Josh wrote:Let’s stop feeding the trolls.
Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:59 am
jcnporter wrote:The one thing I would say is that for all its faults, the US media, at least the written side of it, is light years better than any of our media here in the UK, which at this point I think is near the worst in the world.
jcnporter wrote:What's even more unfortunate is that centrists and 'moderates' have, in many cases knowingly, gone along with it to maintain their status quo and attack the left, who they see as the real danger.
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:17 am
niknak wrote:I'm sure the family of the police officer beaten to death with a fire extinguisher...
Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:23 am
zeoevil wrote:I wasn't a fan of that either. However, when your city is burning to the ground and people are being hurt but the government of your city is refusing to even try to maintain law and order, something has to be done. Serious question. What would you have done?
Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:39 am
SamuraiDrifter wrote:zeoevil wrote:I wasn't a fan of that either. However, when your city is burning to the ground and people are being hurt but the government of your city is refusing to even try to maintain law and order, something has to be done. Serious question. What would you have done?
This is so beyond wrong I'm not even sure where to start, but I guess I'll start here: by "the city is refusing to even try to maintain law and order," do you mean the cities that sent massive amounts of heavily militarized police and National Guard to attack people before property damage even started? The ones who set off massive tear gas grenades spanning city blocks and unleashed rubber bullets against hurting, grieving people who had just seen a member of their community murdered in broad daylight?
Do you mean the cities whose police openly and violently escalated conflict with people rightfully protesting against open murder by thugs of the state when every other avenue had been taken from them?
Perhaps a society I was in charge in wouldn't normalize brutality and murder by armed state thugs to put people in prison for profit, but assuming I did end up in charge of such a twisted society, my response to that situation would not be to unleash secret, federal police with no oversight to terrorize people exercising their free speech.
Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:06 am
zeoevil wrote:No. I didn't mean any of those things. I said I didn't like what happened and I meant it. I asked you how you would handle civil disobedience if it was your city being destroyed. Thank you for your answer. I think the thing we disagree about is that people should be held accountable for the laws they break even when they breaks those laws for something they believe in. Correct me if I'm wrong, but should people who caused damage to unrelated people and property be held accountable for their actions or not? If so, to what degree? And if not, why not?
This is good. Let's keep it going.
Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:08 am
SamuraiDrifter wrote:I live in a city where protests were occurring. I was very close to them. The inner-city residents of my area were overwhelmingly supportive of the protests because they're used to being terrorized by the police. We do not view cop cars as safe or comforting. When we see the police, we prepare to be harassed, everyone knows someone who's been beaten, killed, or arrested under bogus circumstances.
SamuraiDrifter wrote:No, I don't think people should be held accountable for breaking laws solely as a result of the fact that they are laws. I don't believe there is any connection whatsoever between legality and morality. I believe that civil disobedience and destruction of corporate property are reasonable reactions to the present situation, where a huge number of people are without healthcare, where prisons are filled along heavily racially-biased lines for victimless crimes and prison populations used to manufacture cheap goods for vast profit, where the police can shoot and kill in the streets with impunity, and where politicians are openly bought and sold to perpetuate this state of affairs.
SamuraiDrifter wrote:I do not think it is reasonable to ask people to stand idly by while their community members are locked away, beaten, robbed, and killed by a faceless, heartless system. I think that peoples' lives are infinitely more valuable than the merchandise in a Target. I don't support politicians of either lying, thieving party deploying armed thugs to keep us in line. I don't think this can be fixed by voting or working within the boundaries of the system. It's working exactly as intended and the laws were not made for us.
Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:03 am
zeoevil wrote:Okay. I can accept that. I've been harassed by police before. I know it isn't the same thing, but I can extend my understanding of my experience to accommodate and learn from your experiences. However, I have had more positive experiences with law enforcement than negative ones so the idea that all cops are bad and their livelihoods should be taken away from them is something I cannot rectify with my personal experience. There has to be somewhere between those two extremes that accounts for both of our experiences. Maybe we should find that spot and see if we can occupy it together.
'm going to have to let this one stew a bit. We agree about the need for health care. So high five there. However, I don't believe there is such a thing as a victimless crime. Every action has consequences no matter how small. You might not be hurting anyone else, but you are probably hurting yourself. If I'm supposed to care about my fellow man, then how can I allow him to hurt himself? To what extent do I owe it to that person and society to help and what options should be available to me to do so? To me, the law is one such tool and I think it should be used to help people to not bring harm to themselves and other people.
I can respect that. I think this is a common misconception. I think the difference here is that to me there is a clear and reasonable distinction to be made between private and corporate property. I don't think it is acceptable to do harm to the property of the citizens you are trying to help. If you burn down a Target, yeah whatever. That doesn't affect Target at all, but the people who work there might not be able to provide for their families after you've destroyed their place of employment. That only makes you look bad to people who might otherwise be persuaded to understand and help you if you just explained it to them. But when you destroy local businesses and cause damage to your city, you do real harm to the people who live there. I'm not sure how that is supposed to help. If I'm missing something here, then let me know.
Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:09 am
zeoevil wrote:niknak wrote:Now tell us about how it was all caused by antifa infiltrators
I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole, but I'm wondering what you think of the photographic evidence linking multiple people who stormed the capital to Antifa riots over the summer. Actual pictures of actual people. The guy with the Viking horns? Photographed at multiple Antifa riots. The two guys standing next to him in that picture taken inside the capitol? Actual Antifa DC members on Antifa DC's website. Just curious. I'm not going to labor the point, but to assume there weren't agitators in the crowd is not a tenable position.
zeoevil wrote:niknak wrote:I'm sure the family of the police officer beaten to death with a fire extinguisher...
I had no idea that happened. I had to look it up to get a grip on what happened. That's fucked up. I can only hope those responsible will be held accountable for their actions.
zeoevil wrote:niknak wrote:You and your moronic views are not welcome here.
I don't think it is up to you to decide who is and isn't welcome here. As long as they don't break the rules, everyone should be welcome here. Disenfranchising people you are too lazy to try and reach does nobody any good. It would be nice to see the progressives to look on the mirror and take some responsibility for their part in why things are as bad as they are now.
Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:58 pm