THE ANGRY RANT THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mexicola]

The moment when the fuckwit you sit next to at work announces they're voting Tory '..to sort out the mess the last lot left.'

AAAAARrRrgGgGhHH!!!!!!!

[Techboy]

haha. basically an all-green office here which is nice. #youngprofessionals

[Aerial Boundaries]

The moment when the fuckwit you sit next to at work announces they're voting Tory '..to sort out the mess the last lot left.'

AAAAARrRrgGgGhHH!!!!!!!

Your mind must've gone straight to the petrol can and the lighter eh?

[A_Northern_Soul]

Slow handclap, Mrs I'm-too-fucking-enlightened-to-vote.

You'll be pleased (and somewhat surprised) to hear I held myself back from launching into that row.

I've already had one lively "debate" with a friend last week who a) was voting Tory, b) didn't believe that most people on benefits needed them c) thought food banks were being used as people wanted free stuff and d) hadn't actually even seen a foodbank. I'll admit it, I went off a little (a lot).

[The Telepathic Kid]

no one's gonna follow me down this road,

I don't even know if I'm exactly saying what I want to say.

But too often I feel that in the "Post what you're working on" thread, too often people just want to be petted and given their neat little treats, or at least they did because I seem to have chased them out with my "harsh truths" which are simply stupid comments of what I think.
I remember when someone responded to my comment with like "Oh thanks for listening but I'm just making this for myself."
I mean like, why even bother posting it then? If you post it, there fore you want someone to listen, and if you want someone to listen therefore you'd want someone to comment, and what if someone had a comment with what they thought was constructive criticism? Is this "just making it for myself" a comeback? is it your way of putting up a shield from any negativity?
"hey guys, I just make music for myself, but here's my new album please buy it if you want more music which I make entirely for myself"
If you were truly making it for yourself, you would never put it up, you would not own a soundcloud account, you would keep it to yourself. Forever.

I make music which I give absolutely no caution to what anyone thinks in terms of approach and style, but whenever someone has a constructive criticism, I always welcome it because it's a way of
1. learning
2. opening a dialogue
3. seeing how my work is viewed from an outside source, which allows reflection and growth

I don't make music for myself, I express myself and give it to people, it is theirs. Not mine.
The process is mine, the product is for the audience.

[louise]

no one's gonna follow me down this road,

I don't even know if I'm exactly saying what I want to say.

But too often I feel that in the "Post what you're working on" thread, too often people just want to be petted and given their neat little treats, or at least they did because I seem to have chased them out with my "harsh truths" which are simply stupid comments of what I think.
I remember when someone responded to my comment with like "Oh thanks for listening but I'm just making this for myself."
I mean like, why even bother posting it then? If you post it, there fore you want someone to listen, and if you want someone to listen therefore you'd want someone to comment, and what if someone had a comment with what they thought was constructive criticism? Is this "just making it for myself" a comeback? is it your way of putting up a shield from any negativity?
"hey guys, I just make music for myself, but here's my new album please buy it if you want more music which I make entirely for myself"
If you were truly making it for yourself, you would never put it up, you would not own a soundcloud account, you would keep it to yourself. Forever.

I make music which I give absolutely no caution to what anyone thinks in terms of approach and style, but whenever someone has a constructive criticism, I always welcome it because it's a way of
1. learning
2. opening a dialogue
3. seeing how my work is viewed from an outside source, which allows reflection and growth

I don't make music for myself, I express myself and give it to people, it is theirs. Not mine.
The process is mine, the product is for the audience.

BRB just going to check that thread and see who you offended

[The Telepathic Kid]

Oh, this has been going on for a while.

No one as of late, but this has been brewing for a good year or two.
Ever since I made the decision to actually comment on everyone instead of just those I enjoyed or people who I'm chummy with.

[Elexen]

My dick is way too big. It's really pissing me off. Getting in the way of everything. I can't even tie my fucking shoes without it getting all tangled up in the goddamn laces. For fuck sake. I'm gonna hang myself..... with my dick.

[The Telepathic Kid]

hey now, that isn't a shot at me, is it?

[IanRedpoint]

no one's gonna follow me down this road,

I don't even know if I'm exactly saying what I want to say.

But too often I feel that in the "Post what you're working on" thread, too often people just want to be petted and given their neat little treats, or at least they did because I seem to have chased them out with my "harsh truths" which are simply stupid comments of what I think.
I remember when someone responded to my comment with like "Oh thanks for listening but I'm just making this for myself."
I mean like, why even bother posting it then? If you post it, there fore you want someone to listen, and if you want someone to listen therefore you'd want someone to comment, and what if someone had a comment with what they thought was constructive criticism? Is this "just making it for myself" a comeback? is it your way of putting up a shield from any negativity?
"hey guys, I just make music for myself, but here's my new album please buy it if you want more music which I make entirely for myself"
If you were truly making it for yourself, you would never put it up, you would not own a soundcloud account, you would keep it to yourself. Forever.

I make music which I give absolutely no caution to what anyone thinks in terms of approach and style, but whenever someone has a constructive criticism, I always welcome it because it's a way of
1. learning
2. opening a dialogue
3. seeing how my work is viewed from an outside source, which allows reflection and growth

I don't make music for myself, I express myself and give it to people, it is theirs. Not mine.
The process is mine, the product is for the audience.

Okay, I'll take the bait.

I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying here. The 'just making it for myself argument' is always a defence mechanism else, as you say, nobody who says that would have a Soundcloud page etc. It's probably truer to say that people are making music to satisfy and entertain themselves firstly and then hoping others might get something out of it too. Personally, I find it difficult to make music without envisaging an audience for it. I couldn't be a hermit making music for myself and nobody else. It's that real or imagined audience that pushes me to finish tracks.

However, musicians are a notoriously neurotic and self-doubting bunch on the whole (and I say that from years and years of being around them). They more often find criticism very hard to take. I'm not saying that's a good or a bad thing, it's just my observation of them at close quarters. It's great that you can be more objective about criticism of your own work, but that's really unusual. In fact, I'd say that you're the first musician I've come across who is able to separate themselves from their work and not take criticism, at least a little bit, personally.

I've found there are some things that you can constructively criticise in someone's music and some you can't. Things like mixing and production are generally safe to criticise - it's relatively easy to get a grasp of what someone was trying to do with production, whatever the style, and if there's something that sounds off then you can usually point it out without ruffling feathers.

Criticising composition is trickier because nobody knows what the artist was aiming for other than the artist themselves. You or I might find someone's tune boring and repetetive, but that might have been exactly what they were aiming for. Just telling that person that their tune is boring doesn't help them. It's like telling them to give up. Instead, try to figure out why you found that track boring and what you would do to fix that if you had written it. If you can't come up with a solution to fix or improve what they've already done (which would genuinely be constructive criticism) then simply don't say anything because it would most likely be damaging. People won't be offended if you say nothing. Trust me.

As an aside, I found it interesting that you couldn't tell a person who's project you had collaborated on that his lyrics were cheesy but you would have no problem saying the same or similar to anyone on the thread. That says a lot about the impersonal nature of online communication.

The other problem with criticising composition is that it assumes that the person criticising knows more about music than the person making it. That may or may not be true but there is the risk of it coming across as elitist. Sometimes your criticism does read like that, as if you know the way music should be be more than everyone else. Now, I don't believe that you really feel that way and sometimes, particularly when you are being constructive, you pitch it much better than others.

I never feel I'm in a position to publicly criticise a style of music I don't like or understand. My thoughts on a death metal band, for example, would be useless and contribute nothing to a discussion. There's nothing to be gained by pulling apart something in a musical style you simply don't get. I wasn't at all surprised that someone got offended when you did that. To be specific, the things you initially said to Elexen weren't constructive and I didn't feel would help them grow as an artist. It's a pretty brutal world if taking a kicking is supposed to help one learn and grow. Elexen took it pretty well I thought. I'd wouldn't have been so thick-skinned.

Finally, because I'm very much in the neurotic and self-doubting musician camp, the guarantee of criticism from yourself is why I don't post anything of my work-in-progress in the "post what you're working on" thread. I'd quite like to share my half-ideas, sketches and finished tracks with people on here but I don't need or want someone else telling me if a track of mine doesn't go anywhere or the ending is redundant. I'm self-critical quite enough as it is, thanks!

It wouldn't surprise me if there were quite a few more musicians on here who won't post to that thread for the same reasons.

In summary my feelings are...
I wouldn't want you to feel you can't post criticism in the "Post what you're working on" thread but I would prefer it if you asked yourself whether a particular critique adds anything positive to the discussion. If you simply don't like something - say nothing. If you like something but it's flawed in some way - analyse the problem and say something constructive. If you think something's great - say something positive of course!

[Mexicola]

The perfect reply I feel Ian

[IanRedpoint]

Thanks Mex. That was really difficult to write.

[Elexen]

TTK: No that was not a shot at you, lol....

But in regards to your post: I think Ian made some good points. I had written this yesterday, but was hesitant to post it for the fact that I didn't think I had enough time to break it down further and was going to go back to expound on it later, but I think Ian did that pretty well so here is my short response from yesterday:

I agree with what you said here. However, I have read many of your comments and I think that sometimes it's the wording that may offend some people. Not the constructive criticism, that is always a good thing and people should be open to it, and realize that it is an opinion to be taken or left, of course. But I believe when criticizing, the writer should be very conscious of the way it's worded, as not to discourage or demean. It seems you are very conscious and respectful most of the time. But once in a while, I have seen certain parts of your criticisms that almost seem like attacks or dictations of how something should be. Considering most artists are very sensitive, this may be why you are met with some resistance once in a while. I myself welcome your mind. Just an observation.

[louise]

God sometimes i wish you guys were women. Your arguments are always so mellow and polite.

[IanRedpoint]

God sometimes i wish you guys were women. Your arguments are always so mellow and polite.

Hahaha.

You really wouldn't be saying that if you knew how frustrated and angry I get with the rest of the band I play in sometimes!

[fujee]

Is it anything like this Ian

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAxFUZHxnn0

[Elexen]

Is it anything like this Ian

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAxFUZHxnn0

Lol! That was classic. And actually quite mellow compared to some of the arguments that I and my past bandmates have had. Fist fights and all.

As far as being mellow and polite when "debating" on the internet... I think that is the way to go. And I also think that this attitude is what makes Twoism a great forum. Even on THE ANGRY RANT THREAD!!!!!!1111!

[The Telepathic Kid]

I don't really agree Ian, but I'm sure you could tell.

I ultimately feel under your suggestions, the thread would become a self congratulatory-fest, with people just patting each other on the back and no one learning.

But I'll heed your advice, and I assume you're talking on behalf of a lot more people who aren't willing to say anything, in that you don't post there because of me.
If that's true, I'm doing more harm than good.

I will refrain from posting in that thread again, even with my own music.
I don't want to contribute music if I can't contribute thoughts and discussion.

[Mexicola]

Missed the point TTK. You CAN contribute and its great that you're honest rather than just handing out platitudes.

But sometimes your comments do come across as overly harsh. Most of us who have been around a while know this and cut some slack but I suspect newer contributors sometimes feel intimidated.

Don't think anyone wants you to stop at all. Just moderate the tone a little sometimes maybe?

Incidentally, these criticisms are meant in the same way I'm sure you intend with your posts. Ie. From a 'good' place, politely offered by friends and peers. You're an integral and important part of Twoism. Please keep going old chap!

[The Telepathic Kid]

I never said I was gonna stop posting here, just in that thread.

And I know myself, if given the luxury of posting within it, I will ultimately lapse back into my old ways.

This is for the better, trust me.